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CATEGORY LISTINGS > DETROIT > inframe gone wrong 14L detroit egr engine

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Thread Title: inframe gone wrong 14L detroit egr engine
Created On Saturday December 18, 2010 19:37

inframe gone wrong 14L detroit egr engine

junior

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Saturday December 18, 2010 19:37

Hello everyone I have a problem in my hands I can’t seem to figure out, and the down time is just making it worst for me to think correctly. I have
a 2005 freightliner century class Detroit 60 series 06R0780424 erg engine 14L, I did an in frame myself, went through the head lapped valves etc, new valve seals, new cup seals, etc... Installed new sleeves, performed injector height by torquing adjuster screw down to 40 in lb and backing off 3/4 of a turn etc... ran rack adjusting valves etc.. the problem was when I removed the cylinder head I didn’t realize that these sleeves would have to come out as an assembly, story short I had marked cam gear with marker not knowing that there was a pin that would align the crank top dead center and a special tool also for the cam gear to time correctly. So I went by mark on cam gear with red marker, I had to bar engine over several times to removes sleeves etc. and when all was said and done I lost the marks on the idler gear etc... So I read book and found book and found out there were timing pins for cam and crank. I installed special tool on crank and used a drill bit the correct size for cam housing pin to align the cam, installed head put everything all back together, started engine had a hard start at first, test drove truck and I have no power boost. The truck was running great just consuming lots of oil and blue smoke etc... Rings were shot etc... Now the cam gear was never removed from cam, some say I might be 180 degrees off on timing etc... from my understanding these egr engines bull gear cares less where the bull gear or idler gear falls at as long as the pins lined up at crank and cam housing with cam gear I should be on timing, so for ease of mind I removed front cover to uncover bull gear and idler gear to see if it mattered where the bull gear falls on and I came across two diamond look like marks next to each other so I assume that is the tdc for the crank so I aligned those two diamond marks with the crank for tdc and checked the cam and they both line up, but the bull gear has more diamond shape marks on bull gear but single diamond marks etc.. So now I am very confused and don’t know where to start anymore... how can I be 180 degrees off on cam if the tool is at tdc on crank and cam is at tdc with pin, wont the cam land in the same spot no matter what if I turn the cam 180 degrees again... something doesn’t make sense to me anymore I guess I’m so frustrated from being down for more than two weeks... the truck was running great hard pulls loud turbo when taking off etc.. Now it has no power and no turbo sound etc... The vpod was replaced not too long ago also and I see it moving the rod on turbo actuator etc... what I don’t hear is the egr coming on and off but it does close at start up because oil is being feed to it at start up so I know it’s not open at startup causing no boost pressure etc... I’m confused any help would be much appreciated thank you... i live in the houston area if anyone wishes to help ... thanks again

Posts: 37
Joined: Jun 2009

Sunday December 19, 2010 03:40

if you think the timing is off check it ,there is a procedure in the manual for it ,by measuring cam lobe lift.it is possible to do the timing correctly and be one tooth out of time,causing poor power ,econony ,hard starting..1 tooth is approx,40 thou.

-------------------------
25 year detroit diesel tech,gone trucking . have a 2007 f/l series 60 egr tri drive with 660 rwhp .egr removed

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Sunday December 19, 2010 08:12

thanks for the reply, could you by any chance have a link to the procedure, or what section in manual I’ve gone through two manuals and might be overlooking it, I have Detroit 60 series 2006 manual at first I wasn’t able to find the timing tdc in the manual cause it had lots of the older style information and there was this on small section about 14L engines not much info on them in this manual but again I might be overlooking at it..

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Sunday December 19, 2010 09:10

This is what I did but I didn’t leave pin in crank so I barged engine over several times, and just performed these steps again in this pdf assuming that the cam would land back in the same spot no matter what the gear wasn’t removed from the cam

http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/11-60-02.pdf

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Sunday December 19, 2010 20:22

Useing the correct tool for alignment will place several things in time. If 1 did not show I cranked it over again to show timing marks. 1- Timing tool in crank/adaptor will always have crankshaft at tdc. 2- timing mark for the bull gear will have a 'diamond' showing in the axcess hole in front of the gear case. Useing a drill bit will NOT necessary align the camshaft to the pita pocket gear case. The correct tool holds the 2 alignment holes at a set posistion AND aligns the camshaft to the pita[pocket housing. You could have been 1 or 2 teeth off. Also the SRS timing pin will be visable through the axcess hole where the sensor goes in at the upper point of the hole. All these will be alinged or it is off. If I remember the timing check is either in the rear of section 1 or somewhere in the middle of the section 1. I have all the readings at my tool box at the shop. Kind of stupid because in my new job we have NO DDEC 5 engines and NO series 60. I personally own a timing tool for the crankshaft locator. The other tools my other job's shop furnished them.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday December 20, 2010 10:17

you got me confused ? GoneFishen, could you explain it a diffrent way ?

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday December 20, 2010 10:20

from my understanding the bull gear has nothing to do with the timing on the 14L engines, i will probably take a picture when i get a chance to show you what i mean,

Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 2010

Tuesday December 21, 2010 07:17

Junior good morning.
I have 2010 edition DDC-SVC-MAN-0004. I can share it. Inside you will find everything you need. I can upload somewhere and you can download it.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Tuesday December 21, 2010 14:54

I appreciate the help can you provide download link here or do you need an email etc...?

Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 2010

Tuesday December 21, 2010 15:19

<< I appreciate the help can you provide download link here or do you need an email etc...? >>

yes..send me email at mhyn@mail.ru and i will reply with download link.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Wednesday December 22, 2010 07:19

thanks I will email asap, I also was told that there have been wire hardness issues behind the head on 60 series egr models the hardness that goes to the egr something to do with pins on plugs etc. the only hardness I saw back there with plugs was the injector hardness but I am going to take another look back there to see if there is something else back there going to the egr hardness etc..

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Friday June 10, 2011 06:51

still having issues with this engine 14L no horse power... i am hoping it will be wrong rack adjustments ..

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Saturday July 02, 2011 14:27

what are the chances of it being a hardness for low horsepower etc.. on injectors etc.. ? at this point i went ahead and installed new fuel pump kit with new injector seals and crush washers and i also went ahead and replaced suction fuel tube from the fuel pump to water seperator and the fuel tubes from the suction from the t at the back of the tranny to water seperator and the return from the check valve and water seperator and the return from back of tranny to water seperator etc.. right now i am about to reinstall rockers and was just asking myself if i should replace the injector hardness or not but i also went ahead and found a guy that would test the injector and they are all spraying very good i saw them spray myself and they are good to go no doubt on injector as of now all he can do is pop test these new injectors n3 he just got the tool to test them and this where i am at on this f____ked up 14l detriot 60 series im fed up with it i havent replaced turbo nor egr valve they say they are functioning ok by dealer whats left on this damnn 14l timing is ok too got checked also

Edited: Saturday July 02, 2011 at 14:35 by junior

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan 2009

Saturday July 02, 2011 16:30

Before i retired the egr engine was out maybe two years. I found that the engine has many things that can have problems with low power if not right. There is no way you can do much trobleshooting with out the solfware to do the test.If you have not connected up and checked the codes you cant understand whats going on.

Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 2009

Sunday July 03, 2011 05:54

Reading your post and knowing what I went through when I did my own in-frame, in my opinion, you have a timing issue. Although I have a 1996 12.7, I would think the timing would be very similar. I was not aware of the "hunting tooth" timing and mistakenly put it out of time by lining up the marks I could see, don't remember now, but probably put it out by at least 2 teeth.(it was out far enough that I had piston-to-valve contact) It ran, but sluggish and with low power. It wiped out after 20 miles and at that point I was done messing with it and took it to Detroit, they eventually took the front cover off to get it back in time. Looking back on it now, wish I had pulled it back to the barn and figured it out myself, oh well. So as Snapon2 says, maybe your off 1 tooth? I have never checked the timing with a dial indicator but the one certain way would be to take the cover off and set it by the book!

I'm confused with your 1st post, when you had the cover off and you said the bull gear marks were lined up with the gear on the crank, were the idler gear marks also lined up with the bull gear and cam gear? If so, guess that would eliminate my hunch. If you remove the idler, you will want to be sure to check your gear lash! Hope this helps Junior.

Posts: 828
Joined: Dec 2008

Sunday July 03, 2011 06:29

It's obvious that your timing is off. Rather than confuse the issue more by trying to help you sort it all out and involve more time, my suggestion is to find a competent shop locally.....either Detroit or independant wuth a good reputation and see if they would do a road call after you pull the engine down enough to get everything set properly. So if it is a few hundred dollars.....it will get done and you can watch and learn from it. We do it all the time for locals doing their own work. From your first post until now it is 6 months......time to close the book on this one. I'm in Florida so I can't help you.....but I'm sure there is somebody locally.

-------------------------
One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Sunday July 03, 2011 09:10

thanks guys for the reply's . here is what this is its a 14L detriot engine very diffrent from a 12.7L. on a 12.7L you do have to line up lots of gears bull gear and so on ... on the 14L engines you dont have to line up the gears like a 12.7L from my understanding and a dial indicator would only tell me maximuim cam lope lift wich would help with injector timing because on the 14l engines they have the new n3 injectors they are diffrent from the n2 injectors the n3 injectors have no timing tool to adjust them with , so you have to find your maximuim cam lope lift on the injector lope for injector timing but again your right i can check maximuim lift on valves for TDC that would mean id have to have all four valves in the closed position correct and piston at maximuim travel up .. but again the crank on the 14L engines have a special tool that puts the crank at TDC and cam has a special tool that puts the cam in TDC also so timing should be right on ? my only question is that on chevy engines gas engines like a 350 chevy engine you can be 180 degrees off on timing when installing a distributor ? so i could be at TDC by removing the spark plug out of cylinder one and checking for the piston maximuim travel to the top which will give me TDC on piston one and i could stab distributor in right there ... the engine will fire up but will not have power due to it not being timed on combustion TDC etc. so i would redo same procedure and just turn the distributor 180 degrees the oposite of its prevous location and walla the engine has all the horsepower back to normal .. could it be that i am having same issue with this detriot 60 series ? because the detriot will fall in timing on the 14L one full turn then the next full turn the cam will be 180 degrees off timing i hope i make sense with this ? what i am saying is that when on a detriot 14L is put on timing crank at tdc and came at tdc if the engine were turned the crank would still be at tdc but the cam would be at tdc but 180 degrees off so it would be on the oposite timing hole of the cam housing ikts hard to explain in words id have to put some pictures together etc.. i dont know the trucks idles low like at 5k rpms should be at 6k rpms. i installed new fuel pump, injector seal, new bottom crush washers for injectors , and new suction hoses on fuel pump and fuel water seperator , i adjusted rack myself with a dial indicator for maximuim injector lope lift , and previous techs have adjusted them also but i bet they did it by eye not with a dial indicator , because my dial indicator told me they were off some were adjusted at 2/4 of a turn and some were at 1/4 of a turn and the book says to do it at 3/4 of a turn , so i adjusted them at 3/4 of a turn and the corresponding valves to it on the other cylinder etc. i did leave the valves a little loose i always like to have my valves kind of sug when adjusting on hondas etc. but i left these on detriot a little loose to see if maybe i was to tight on valves and my rpm might go up a little but it didnt .... i havent test drove it yet just got back together last night but it didnt do what gonefishing said on another post about it turning on then you should see th rod on turbo go up on actuator which it did but it didnt sound like a jet plain after a while and the egr valve in the inspection plate notch was straight across not up and down but i didnt let fully warm up i was fed up and called it a day i will crank it again today and see what it does.. i am tempted to remove cam again but line it up at tdc on crank and it being 180 degrees on cam and then set it to the cam housing timing hole .. ihope some one that is more familiar with 14L knows what i am talking about basically these engine will show you are at timing one one crank tdc and then if you turn it a full turn to come back to tdc it will show 180 degrees off and if you turn it again at crank to bring it back to tdc again it will be at correct tdc marks on cam and crank so i dont know maybe thats what it is but i removed srs at crank or trs dont recall which one is which but i removed it at crank just to check and see if it had the crank tdc gear for the trs to read etc.. at and it does so i am at a quess here that maybe it could be cam 180 degrees off dont make sense but not sure ???

Posts: 828
Joined: Dec 2008

Sunday July 03, 2011 11:35

I got a headache from trying to make sense of all that. Make no mistake......as with all four stroke engines.....the crank turns twice to the cam turning once. If your 350 was 180 out.....you could simply pull the distributor and turn the rotor 180....drop it back in....set the timing and you would be good to go. It simply wouldn't run at all 180 out. So to be more clear.....your Detroit injectors and valves are set to the cam. The cam controls the valves and injectors. The piston has to be in the right position timed to the cam.

-------------------------
One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.

Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 2009

Sunday July 03, 2011 11:49

"Now the cam gear was never removed from cam, some say I might be 180 degrees off on timing etc... from my understanding these egr engines bull gear cares less where the bull gear or idler gear falls at as long as the pins lined up at crank and cam housing with cam gear I should be on timing"

From your 1st post, you mention it may not matter where the bull gear is between the crank and the cam gear. Now if the 14L bull gear has a SRS pin in it like the 12.7 then it would very much matter wouldn't it? Maybe someone else can answer this question. As far as 180 degrees off, I agree with JoeZ, it wouldn't run at all and according to the book, you would have piston to valve damage.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Sunday July 03, 2011 12:05

ok then im at lost here. i know that the cam srs pin lines up with the srs at tdc and the crank does too. the reason why i say if it would be at 180 degrees is due to the chevy example.. and the 350 engine would run with it at 180 degrees off ive done it before and yes your right all i have to do is remove distributor and restab it ... the reason i am saying this is because i keep getting question about timing. i am frustrated with this truck and yes i am about ayear in hole of parts and labor and time lost on the road and money. i have sent it to stewart stevenson dealer and they couldnt figure it out $700. in labore trying to figure it out was more than enough ok time to diagnose the problem so i took it out and then sent it to freightliner now freightliner i only allowed $300.00 diagnoses and that was it the next steps were replacing major components like turbo ecu egr etc.. i also got manager involved in it and told him if he garantees it will fix the problem go for it but he couldnt so i took it out and i am trying to figure it out by diagnosing not replacing parts i have done that already i have replaced so many parts already ... sorry for not making sense but i do appreciate your help in any way you can thanks any more ideas i would appreiciate it thanks ..

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan 2009

Sunday July 03, 2011 18:46

Junior i have work 60S senice they came out and like been stated you will have to get some one that understands the timing because if we try to tell you you will sure get mixed up. But in short yu can check the cam timing with a dial indicator and we had a understanding in out shop when the cam bolt is taken out then the timing gets checked with the dial indicator. I have seen many one tooth off from a on the side over haul that the guys doing it did not know how easy it is to get one tooth off.Also another thing i have done a lot of and that is replace the front gear set when a head was replaced and the back lass was not set proper and also when the rear front cover has been taken off of the block so guys dont have the aligment tool to reinstall to the block. That is always go for at leat 4500 dollars on the road.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Sunday July 03, 2011 20:53

what would you do for checking timing on 14L egr engine with a dial indicator which i have ? i will follow every step and double check it again. thanks

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan 2009

Sunday July 03, 2011 22:15

I have no manual here on that engine maybe some one will and copy the directions off for you. There is about 6 pages of instruction to follow and more that one can post here.Plus the specs on the differen models and cams.

Posts: 722
Joined: Aug 2007

Monday July 04, 2011 05:40

I have the manual here and can fax you the pages you need I will be here till about 11am 4th of july, then I have to leave out for louisville,ky with a load.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday July 04, 2011 07:27

stump i have the manual what page are you looking at ?

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday July 04, 2011 07:31

by the way this cam has no cam gear bolt its a 14L engine and the cam gear etc.. is pressed onto the the cam itself, so the only way the cam will be removed is by removing the cam case bolts and cam its self like an assembly ... then if needed to remove cam gear you would have to use a puller then press it back on if i recall the cam dont have threads for a bolt to press the gear back on to the cam etc...

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday July 04, 2011 07:46

what i do notice is that the turbo builds boost then it lacks boost why? ok for a example has anyone ever had an older car idle air valve act up on them. this is what a idle air valve will do or rortary valve what ever you might recall them calling it but it will raise the idle on your car like if you were to accelerate it , but it would do it on its own. it would raise the rpms and lower the rpms at idle or at a stop light . this is what the turbo is doing but it does it when i accelerate at idle it will build boost and then just loose it and if i hold it at a steady rpm it will act like a idle air valve it will increase the rpms and then just decrease the rpms , it will flucuate my rpms up and down and you can hear turbo building boost pressure then it will loose it ? right now i am running it with out jakes brakes on it just to see if the jakes brakes might contributing to my issue ... and i also read that the jakes woould hold exhaust valves open if it had some kind of bad spring on jakes , something like that its a bulliten but i just took them off just to see if it was it or not ..

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Tuesday July 05, 2011 10:40

yea i thought yall you would give up on me with my nonsense etc... but i have a last question on my engine. why does it say a 12.7L on valve cover and it has a screw in type injector cups with n3 injectors ? should i be adjusting my injectors like an n3 injector and my valves like a 12.7L ?

Posts: 149
Joined: Jan 2009

Tuesday July 05, 2011 15:42

You have to understand a 12.7 is the size of engin and the late 12.7 used th n3 injector. The overhead needs to be set as the manual calls for on the model.If you dont have a manual you or asking for problems by doing it as some one tells you to.

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Tuesday July 05, 2011 16:32

i have the manual but i am going by the type of injectors i have on truck so i am adjusting everything as a n3 injectors so i installed a dial indicator on injector #1 cam roller i bared engine over to the right standing in front of the radiator facing the windshield and as soon as the dial indicator stopped moving i adjusted injector #1 and valves on #5

5. Stop engine rotation and note which cylinder this is, and follow the sequence listed in Table 1
to correctly set injector and valves.

Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.6 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.6 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.2
Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.2 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.2 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.4
Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.4 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.4 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.1
Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.1 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.1 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.5
Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.5 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.5 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.3
Max. injector lobe travel on Cylinder No.3 Adjust Injector on Cylinder No.3 Adjust Valves on Cylinder No.6

Table 1 Valve Lash and N3 Injector Setting Adjustment Sequence

6. This injector can now be set using this procedure:
[a] Loosen the locknut on the adjusting screw at least two full turns.

Tighten the adjusting screw until the injector plunger bottoms out torque, value should
be 4.51 N·m (40 in·lbs).

[c] Back the adjusting screw off 3/4 of a turn 0.75 mm ± 0.25 mm and tighten the locknut to
41-47 N·m (30-35 lb·ft).

[d] The injector is now adjusted.

7. Adjust the valves on the corresponding cylinders listed in Table 1.

http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/24-60-03.pdf

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Tuesday July 05, 2011 16:50

thanks for your reply . i went ahead and installed another v pod off of another truck that i really didn't want to mess with same setup except this one has n2 injectors and its a 2004 14L as well. i wanted to change turbo but i just don't want two trucks down.. i tried v pod and it seems like my boost psi stays at 10psi to 24psi max with the Pro-link NEXIQ hand held. i was in the data list and i took the truck for a spin and i don't get above 25psi of boost. so i figured the new v pod that i installed was faulty because it would create boost then it would loose boost etc.. now i dont know if the egr valve is in the open position when coasting at 65 mph or not but i have no power what so ever and this 04 14L truck does pull very good and the turbo dont sound as loud as the 05 truck.... i have messed with the turbo actuator but i measured its original hight so i can always put it back to its original position but even then i still have no boost. the 04 truck feels very light when taking off and the 05 truck feels very heavy and idles a little rough and the 04 idles right at 6k rpms on taq but the 05 idles below 6k rpms at taq i am thinking you guys might be right on timing but i have followed every step on the book. crank at tdc and cam at tdc the cam gear was never removed at all. i took the cam off with the cam housing all together and reinstalled it back the same way etc.. i have removed front cover as well to inspect etc.. but still think its on time. the book says the bull gear and cam idle gear are the same 0.67:1 but cam gear is 0.50:1 so the crank doesnt care where it falls at as long as its at tdc with tool installed at tdc correct . would the cam care where it falls at even though its timed at gear case? so if both are at tdc where could i be wrong on timing? why are my rpms to low the pro link says im at 6krpm but taq says i am below 6k rpms etc..

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Tuesday July 05, 2011 17:49

if i run the engine without jake brakes on will this affect performance etc.. just wondering because right now i am testing it without jakes on just to rule jakes out...

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Wednesday July 06, 2011 20:11

today i installed a good used turbo and v pod and test drove it i didn't see any difference. what i did next was disconnected the egr valve and test drove again.. my boost psi went up to 39psi and the truck seems more responsive etc... could it be that the egr valve is stay stuck open at higher rpms etc? does the egr valve need to be calibrated etc ? i think i narrowed it down to bad turbo and egr valve. the original turbo was erratic in boost psi pressure it never reached to 39psi. i get 39psi at above 60 mph etc... could the ecu be sending wrong signals to egr valve and it opening at the wrong time ?

Edited: Wednesday July 06, 2011 at 20:21 by junior

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday July 11, 2011 12:36

is it possible that my injectors could be firing at the wrong time? could my ecm be firing cylinder 6 instead of cylinder one ?

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec 2010

Monday July 11, 2011 12:43

if i hook up a laptop or scanner to my truck. how can i check how advance my timing is or how retarded it is ?

Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 2009

Tuesday September 13, 2011 05:25

Junior, Did you ever figure out what was going on with this engine?

Posts: 2
Joined: Oct 2011

Tuesday October 18, 2011 14:11

This message is for Snapon2
I know you poted this information a couple of years ago, but if you are still around I would like to talk to you. I have a 05 Detroit 14L, that I'm trying to remove the EGR.. I noticed you said you were able to reprogram to obtain 650 hp.. Would like to discuss how you did this? Thank you. I can be reached at barnestransport@yahoo.com as well Thanks.

-------------------------
Doug Barnes

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